Post with 578 views. 'You started this war, plunged Skyrim into chaos, and now the Empire is going to put you down, and restore the peace.' 'You started this war, plunged Skyrim into chaos!' He said as he slapped the woman with his backhand across the face. 'And now, the Empire's going to put you down and restore the peace!' He said as his hand was readying for another slap but was disturbed by a thunderous sound.
So you're blaming Ulfric for the dragons now? The prophecy says 'when the snow tower lies kingless, bleeding'. It takes two sides to make a war.
If the empire had accepted the outcome of Ulfric's duel with Torygg and let Skyrim secede, there would have been no prophecy. Not that I think this line of reasoning actually worth discussing.Ulfric would have rebelled against the Empire regardless of how the Empire handled the situation. He wasn't just going to secede and rule half of Skyrim either, he wanted the entire province, including the half that is loyal to the Empire.As for Alduin, Ulfric says this in Sovngarde if one sides with the Legion.sigh. As long as we've been having these discussions and the same old canards get thrown out. No one, not even Ulfric, envisions Skyrim defeating the Dominion alone.
And the legion with all their supposedly superior whatsits- partly owing to those Nords you're backhandedly dissing- didn't defeat them before.If you don't think the Legion can defeat them, I don't see how you expect a much more disorganized and more poorly informed alliance of some of the same people could.Posts: 3415 Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:24 am. Mmmm.Okay, here's proof that Ulfric is racist, and has an agenda.He relocates people of a differing race and belief system, no matter how well they integrate, into a ghetto, and utilises their differences as a means to reinforce his own position of power.further, he 'tolerates' or ignores, if you prefer, discriminatory and victimising behaviour against those people.I just wonder how things would look if Ulfric had a railway system.would he have priests of Talos making the selections?You're misinformed.
Go read about the Red Year and the Decree of Monument before you start spinning Auschwitz scenarios.Posts: 3412 Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:15 am. Impossible to say for sure. He was talking about Skyrim's independence, but it was the Markarth Incident that pushed him over the edge.All the souls caught in the mist are in despair. Legate Rikke is lamenting over the war, too. Like I said, it takes two sides to make a war.
The imperials did not have to fight.As General Tullius said, it was Ulfric who started this war and plunged Skyrim into Chaos. The Imperials were acting perfectly reasonably in reacting to assist the loyalist Nords in opposing the Stormcloak rebellion. Because I consider it plain that the legion's organization and resources aren't doing the job.
Instead they're just weakening humanity's cause as Cyrodiil flails and bargains to keep its hold on what provinces remain under its boot.Ulfric started this unnecessary conflict. It's his fault, not the Empire's, that Skyrim is in chaos and that humanity is weakening itself. If the Empire didn't send help and simply bent over for Ulfric to take the province, plenty of Nords would have still died opposing him, and certainly far more than the Thalmor Justiciars could have killed.Posts: 3432 Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:00 pm. As General Tullius said, it was Ulfric who started this war and plunged Skyrim into Chaos. The Imperials were acting perfectly reasonably in reacting to assist the loyalist Nords in opposing the Stormcloak rebellion.Well that's not a biased opinion at all.You might as well say the empire started it with the WGC, and by not recognizing the outcome of Ulfric's duel with Torygg and allowing the Nords to choose their king their own way. Torygg was the imperial representative in Skyrim, and he accepted Ulfric's duel. If the imperials had not interfered, it would have gone to a moot.
That might have resulted in civil war anyway, but we'll never know.Posts: 3361 Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:09 am. Well that's not a biased opinion at all.You might as well say the empire started it with the WGC, and by not recognizing the outcome of Ulfric's duel with Torygg and allowing the Nords to choose their king their own way. Torygg was the imperial representative in Skyrim, and he accepted Ulfric's duel. If the imperials had not interfered, it would have gone to a moot.Canada has an army? I thought it just relied on the fact that the US won't let any hostile country attack and occupy Canada or Mexico, because it'd give the hostile country a landing point to move ground troops into position to attack the US.Ever heard of the Battle of Vimy Ridge? Look it up sometime.While I was in the US Navy, I had the privledge to work along side the Canadians (along with the NZ, Aussie and British military).
And I thought that I'd be honored to stand by their side anyday that they need us to.Posts: 3453 Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 10:58 am. They both want territorial concessions.You're pretty invincible about not hearing what I said so this is my last shot before I go kill lots of stormcloaks because of our discussion. Yes, both did want territorial concessions but the Empire's demands were in response to Ulfric's demands.
Do you think it would have come up at all if Ulfirc hadn't started it. You obviously thing so and I just don't.killing Ulfric is one of the most satisfying moments I've had it any game and now I really want to go do it again. Thanks for refueling my passion.Posts: 3529 Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:29 pm. I love these threads and always finish reading them with the certainty that players/fans spend much more time worrying over Lore than Beth ever didAs far as I can see, the Civil War in Skyrim is religious.
Having personally clensed The Reach, for the Emperor Mede I, in exchange for the right to worship the Nord god Talos, Ulfric is (unsurprisingly) extremely upset when the Emperor's son signs a treaty with the Thalmor, banning Talos worship and granting the Thalmor access to Skyrim to stamp it out. Whether Ulfric has other personal aims - and whether he is racist - is neither here nor there is terms of why - for public consumption, at least - the war is being fought. If the Empire cannot stick to its word and allow Talos worship (as agreed), then the Stormcloaks will see that it is (by over thowing the Empire).This is not much different than the Redguards of Hammerfell, who agrieved at the WGC, throw out the Thalmor (and sign a treaty) whilst also severing ties with the Empire. Imperials believe that the Thalmor - while not happy at the loss of Hammerfelll - are molified that the Redguards will also no longer support the Empire.
It seems fair to assume, at the very least, that the Empire believes the Thalmor are persuing a strategy of Divide-and-Conquer. The Empire's strength was the unification of the Human Race, that it is divided is only good for the (self proclaimed) Elven Government. This is what horrifies Imperial supporters about the Civil War (whether they are Nord, or otherwise)But, the thing to remember, when relying on Lore - for anything - is that a book is written by someone and that someone may well have a personal and racial bias.The Great War Review is written by an Imperial Commander (probably a Redguard), from eye witness accounts, stolen documents and interegation of prisoners; little of that could be said to provide 100% undisputible truth. But he does impress on the reader the heroic part played by General Jonna and the Nord Legions, in retaking the Imperial City (in particular, blocking the Thalmors' escape to the south and leading to the occupying army being completely destroyed).'
Nords are not fair weather friends', I took to be a reference to the fact that much Nord blood is spilled in what appeared, at the time, to be a futile effort at regaining control of Cyrodiil.In the end, Ulfric appears to want what the Redguards have won - independance from both the Thalmor and the Empire (which has failed to live up to its promises and protect the traditional Nord way of life and worship). However, many Nords - who themselves may have fought and their kin may have died (The Great War is very recent history, less than 30 years have passed since the signing of the WGC) - to see the Empire continue, will not support what they see as just another rag-tag and power hungry war lord making a grab for the throne of their country, while jepodising Human power in wider Tamriel.Facsinating stuff. How to use easy transfer cable. Well argued allPosts: 3381 Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:34 pm. You're pretty invincible about not hearing what I said so this is my last shot before I go kill lots of stormcloaks because of our discussion. Yes, both did want territorial concessions but the Empire's demands were in response to Ulfric's demands. Do you think it would have come up at all if Ulfirc hadn't started it.
You obviously thing so and I just don't.killing Ulfric is one of the most satisfying moments I've had it any game and now I really want to go do it again. Thanks for refueling my passion.I guess I'm supposed to care about this. LolDo you really think Tullius is there just to say hello? They both want concessions and advantage, it doesn't matter who speaks first or loudest. And again, the whole cease fire scene is a sham anyway, a complete waste of time to pacify Balgruuf. They all know it. They're just humoring you.Have fun storming the castle.Posts: 3290 Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:52 am.
I love these threads and always finish reading them with the certainty that players/fans spend much more time worrying over Lore than Beth ever didAs far as I can see, the Civil War in Skyrim is religious. Having personally clensed The Reach, for the Emperor Mede I, in exchange for the right to worship the Nord god Talos, Ulfric is (unsurprisingly) extremely upset when the Emperor's son signs a treaty with the Thalmor, banning Talos worship and granting the Thalmor access to Skyrim to stamp it out. Whether Ulfric has other personal aims - and whether he is racist - is neither here nor there is terms of why - for public consumption, at least - the war is being fought.
If the Empire cannot stick to its word and allow Talos worship (as agreed), then the Stormcloaks will see that it is (by over thowing the Empire).This is not much different than the Redguards of Hammerfell, who agrieved at the WGC, throw out the Thalmor (and sign a treaty) whilst also severing ties with the Empire. Imperials believe that the Thalmor - while not happy at the loss of Hammerfelll - are molified that the Redguards will also no longer support the Empire. It seems fair to assume, at the very least, that the Empire believes the Thalmor are persuing a strategy of Divide-and-Conquer. The Empire's strength was the unification of the Human Race, that it is divided is only good for the (self proclaimed) Elven Government. This is what horrifies Imperial supporters about the Civil War (whether they are Nord, or otherwise)But, the thing to remember, when relying on Lore - for anything - is that a book is written by someone and that someone may well have a personal and racial bias.The Great War Review is written by an Imperial Commander (probably a Redguard), from eye witness accounts, stolen documents and interegation of prisoners; little of that could be said to provide 100% undisputible truth. But he does impress on the reader the heroic part played by General Jonna and the Nord Legions, in retaking the Imperial City (in particular, blocking the Thalmors' escape to the south and leading to the occupying army being completely destroyed).' Nords are not fair weather friends', I took to be a reference to the fact that much Nord blood is spilled in what appeared, at the time, to be a futile effort at regaining control of Cyrodiil.In the end, Ulfric appears to want what the Redguards have won - independance from both the Thalmor and the Empire (which has failed to live up to its promises and protect the traditional Nord way of life and worship).
However, many Nords - who themselves may have fought and their kin may have died (The Great War is very recent history, less than 30 years have passed since the signing of the WGC) - to see the Empire continue, will not support what they see as just another rag-tag and power hungry war lord making a grab for the throne of their country, while jepodising Human power in wider Tamriel.Facsinating stuff. Well argued allGood post, couple of problems with it though. Ulfric went to Markarth to reclaim the Jarl's throne after the Concordat was already signed by Mede II. In desperation, the deposed Jarl of Markarth offered to Ulfric restoration of open Talos worship even under the Concordat, for purging the city's Forsworn elements and restoring him to the throne. However, he had no real ability to override the treaty so it couldn't be allowed.
Though the Jarl messed up more than Ulfric did, a promise from a Jarl would always be superseded by Imperial treaty law. It was after the Markarth Incident that the Thalmor sent the Justicars to enforce the treaty, whereas the Empire had simply ignored the precence of Talos worship before then. Also, Talos is not just a Nordic god, but the first Emperor of the Third Era and the Imperial god Tiber Septim.I don't agree with the Empire being a solely for unifying the human race either, it used to unite all of Tamriel. It unites people of all the races under one rulership, Cyrodiil is (or at least was) a very diverse province. Elves and beastfolk are part of the Empire too, not every Altmer agrees with the Thalmor, Bosmer and Khajiit are seen as inferior servants to the Thalmor, and the Dunmer and Orcs are far too disassociated with mainstream High Elven culture to be allies of there's.
The Argonians are alien in comparison to every culture, but some live and make their homes in the Empire as well.Posts: 3384 Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:26 am. Good post, couple of problems with it though.
Ulfric went to Markarth to reclaim the Jarl's throne after the Concordat was already signed by Mede II. In desperation, the deposed Jarl of Markarth offered to Ulfric restoration of open Talos worship even under the Concordat, for purging the city's Forsworn elements and restoring him to the throne. However, he had no real ability to override the treaty so it couldn't be allowed.Nice catch' The Empire and the son of the deposed Jarl promised Ulfric Stormcloak free worship of Talos in exchange for retaking The Reach.' - is what player interpted Lore says.Arrianus Arius, Imperial Scholar (and, to my mind, never a man whose word should be taken at face value), has this to say: 'We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of the Divines).
In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, 'no' is not an answer.' You are correct, though; Markarth was in the year following the end of the War and the WGC. So, the Empire is part of the agreement with Ulfric and is even more at fault for putting Ulfric in an impossible situation. Again, this is very much like the Redguard situation. Elves and beastfolk are part of the Empire too, not every Altmer agrees with the ThalmorYes.
You Started This War Plunged Skyrim Into Chaos Mod
And no.As for not all Elves supporting the Thalmor. True, but then only that simulates how things work in the Real World, it is there to try to move the races away from straight-up stereotypes.Eleven leadership (Wood Elf included) appears to (however, in some cases, grudglingly) support the Thalmor-led government. And the Thalmor do appear to be turning Tamriel into an Elves v Human conflict. Who are probably best described as Mer.
Would - it seems - probably support whichever side promised them a proper homeland.Khajiit and Argonians - All of the beast races are looked down on by humans and elves (even Orcs) alike. Quite probably because much ancient literature hints heavily that they were the aboriginals who were displaced by Mer and ManThe Khajiit (leadership) supports the Thalmor because of their claim of ending the Void Nights. It is hinted (by Imperial writings!) that they did no such thing.
You Started This War Plunged Skyrim Into Chaos 3
Were that to be the case, there is not much evidence to be found to support the theory that Khajiit would continue their support for the Thalmor (although some scholars - and Khajiit writings - hint that Khajiit and Elf may have common lineage. And so maybe there are other. Unwritten, as yet. Reasons?).Nice response, by the wayPosts: 3430 Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:31 pm.